Roundel's
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roundel.htm-68B
BMW: Company background/history, and lots more....including an extensive listing of Roundels, part numbers, etc.
Just a FEW of the various Roundel's that you might see
I THINK the above is actually the Soviet version, see the printing I put on the photo.
BMW is very protective of its Roundel.
I would not be surprised to find BMW asking ME to remove them
from my
website at some time!
The COMPANY...and...Roundel background, and controversy:
It is quite popularly believed that BMW's
Roundel is a artist rendition of an airplane
propeller. This seems natural, as
BMW really DID make
aircraft engines. However, it is not exactly
true. It remains, in some quarters,
somewhat of a
controversy; and, the myth is perpetuated, even by
some who THINK they are telling the real
story.
In
some instances, I think that even BMW personnel, to avoid a long
story, just 'agree' that it is an airplane propeller.
NOTE
that I have heard of even BMW's own Mobil Tradition folks passing
out WRONG information!!!
I think that the controversy started in a BMW
Journal, in 1942, when Wilhelm Farrenkopf did an article, showing
an
aircraft and a roundel (spinning). It is entirely
possible that a much earlier event started this controversy,
because in
1929 BMW acquired a license to make Pratt &
Whitney radial aircraft engines. The story goes that
the advertising
folks used a Roundel, and made it blue and
white.
So,
here is a brief history, as I understand it. I am sure that
a Google.com search will turn up more detailed information
on
Rapp, Popp, etc.::::try Wikepoedia too.
THE problem in understanding all this is that BMW itself came about from several directions: mergers, buyouts, and so on.
In the early part of the 1900's, there was a
company called Rapp Motorenwerke (started in 1913).
The company was started
by Karl Rapp, and it made aircraft
engines. It's own design was not very reliable, and they
needed something to do, so they
began making engines for
Daimler.
[side note: It may be difficult for those trying to
understand the distorted history of BMW, to understand that BMW existed in the
early
1900's.....and that this 'BMW' made engines and brake parts for a company
named Knorr-Bremse, of Munich....before and during WWI.
J. P. Vielmetter
had purchased Kontinentale Bremsen-Gesellschaft for the Knorr-Bremse company
before WWI., and turned that into
what might be called BMW, making brake parts
for railroads....and engines and other aluminum parts for other companies.
The BMW
board of engineers at that time were Wilhelm Strauss and Franz-Joseph
Popp. Popp, who had previously worked for Knorr, contacted
his old Knorr-Bremse friends, and arranged for 'BMW' to have a contract making these
mentioned items. Popp's idea was to keep 'BMW'
going, by most any
means, until the economy improved. It was a few years later, in
1921, that BMW showed some of its auto parts and
motors; and, a pamphlet on BMW's
own motors, at the Berlin Auto Show. See below,... it was in
this period of time, that Castiglioni
purchased his BMW shares BACK from
Knorr-Bremse.....and had also purchased a large block of shares in Bayrische
Flugzeugwerken
AG). BMW and Knorr-Bremse separated from each other,
and BMW moved to Lerchenauer Strasse...Popp stayed with BMW]
The head of the division at Daimler that
contracted with Rapp, was Franz Josef Popp. Popp
eventually went to Rapp to
oversee production, and became
involved in managing Rapp. It was Popp who convinced Rapp
to hire Max Friz, who was a
Daimler engineer. Friz designed
an engine for Rapp. Friz's first engine for Rapp used the
BMW nameplate. July 15th,
1917, the owners of the company
(Rapp did not have control) fired Rapp, and now needed a new
company name. The new
name was Bayerische Motorenwerke
Gmbh. THAT is, BMW. It was Popp that hired Max Friz for
BMW. Popp was
the Director of
the company until 1942.
When Rapp left and BMW Gmbh came about, it
continued to be Friz for engineering and Popp for Managing.
They decided
to get a new logo. The original logo was
Rapp's, had been designed by Rapp's brother Ottmar. Rapp's
logo looked
something like today's Roundel, but in the center was
a black horse. Why?...well, Rapp means black horse, or
something
like that, in German. So, Friz and Popp
wanted to keep something of the old logo, so they simply used the
blue and white
of the Bavarian National Flag, eliminating the
horse. There was no propeller involved. Popp
wanted the new logo and
company properly registered for legal
reasons, so he registered the logo and name on December 10th,
1917, as #221388,
and they used the "Roundel" as an
actual name. The registration was done at the Imperial
Trademark center or something
like that. I have heard, but
have not proven to myself, that the blue and white areas were
reversed from the Bavarian Free
State flag, it being illegal to
do otherwise. Friz and Popp added the letters BMW at
the top. Over the many years since, the
emblem has changed
some, and the font of the "BMW" has changed some, but
the basics remain.
This was how the trademark patent came
about. NOTE that the application stated that the symbol for
the company and its
products were for a wide range of things,
including land-sea-air vehicles, autos, bicycles, vehicle
components, and engines
and furniture! So, it was Max Friz
and Josef Popp who did the Roundel. However...there is a
somewhat confusing bit here,
as there SEEMS to be involvement in
the Roundel by Camillo Castiglioni, the previously mentioned Italian Financier.
I think I have it figured out....and why Castiglioni was involved, perhaps not in the Roundel design (that is UNclear).
Here's the last part of the confusing
beginnings of BMW:
Gustave Otto was the son of the famous inventor of the 4-stroke
combustion engine, Nikolaus Otto. We used to call
this
engine style the Otto-cycle engine. Gustav was a
pilot, and he started a flight school, called Otto-flugzeugwerke,
in 1913,
located someplace around Munich. That
company was purchased in February of 1916 by a consortium of
companies including
MAN-AG and some banks, and these investors
immediately started business as Bayerische Flugzeugwerke
AG. BFW.
That company had problems, and branched out,
and produced aircraft for others, and also made furniture
(naturally...as
aircraft were mostly constructed of wood)....and
after 1921 they made the Flink and the Helios motorcycles.
In late 1921, Camillo Castiglioni, the Italian
financier, bought some of BFW. Popp was somehow involved,
perhaps as
advisor. In 1922 Castiglioni AND Popp bought out
MAN-AG's interest in BFW. The company was now totally
Castiglioni's.
He then bought BMW's engine business, which
at that time was owned by Knorre-Bremse AG.
He then merged BFW and BMW.
Some books have the situation mixed up, and
ONE of the mix-ups came about because Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG
was restarted in 1926, and BMW had stock or some other fairly
decent interest in that company. Popp was BMW's
representative on the Board. Interestingly
for aviation buffs, the company name changed later to
Messerschmitt.
ROUNDEL'S (BMW emblems):
There are quite a number of
various sizes and styles of BMW Roundel's. Car
dealers have some types, bike dealers have some other
types. The bike dealers
should be able to order the car
types; and vv. Some Roundels have holes for use
with flat or oval
head screws. A few have underside pegs, used with clips, on
cars
mostly. Most popular are the various stick-on
types.
In common use are these
styles: Flat Style, Jewel or 3D or Raised Edge. Jewel style means they are smooth,
and
rounded, and the back is metal....they look like they are encased
in glass or clear plastic. Flat Style
mblems like the old
/6 and later tank emblems are a simple thin circle of aluminum
and the logo is laminated
onto them. 3D style emblems
have a depth look, are plastic backed and have a raised
chrome-like rim
around the edge. Vinyl stickers are flat,
flexible, and LOOK 3D. Emblems generally have a
self-adhesive backing.
There
is ONE type of Roundel that I have not listed. These are
the mileage-award Roundels. These are
70 mm, have holes for
taper screws.
16-11-1-230-769
(uses rubber pad 16-11-1-230-506). These are a screw-on
enameled type
used on the /5 fuel tanks.
Some books may show the
rubber pad as
obsolete, but they are available from Bob's BMW, who carries a
decent
variety of Roundels...even the Motosports
ones. Bob's stocks the SS
screws; to replace the 07-11-9-928-420
screws. NOTE: There are other
types of
screwed-on badges, such as
on the /2, etc., on OLD BMW bikes.
Bob's BMW carries
some if not all of these.
$$$.
51-14-0-035-269
Serif lettering on the tank emblem, used from 1951-1965.
51-14-8-080-181
Without Serif (Sans-serif), used from 1966-1969; for these,
you will want
the SS screws, Bob's has them: 07-11-9-901-310
51-14-5-096-147 R60S rear fender emblem.
Can't find my references,
probably an
error here.
16-11-1-232-908....then 16-11-2-325-179; 70 mm stick-on
types.
They've been replaced
in some literature by
46-63-7-686-746, see below.
Some catalogs
show the -179 as a current
product.
Used on K tanks, many other places, all BMW bikes.
The -179 is a good number. There is a car part number,
36-13-6-758-569 that looks at first glance to be identical, but
it is
actually nicer, with the BMW and the round lines being slightly
raised.
These probably cost about $8, and the car part is the one to get.
...in my
opinion.
46-63-7-686-746 2-3/4" (70 mm) in diameter, flat
style, used on tanks from
'74; NOT
for R100GS/R/Mystic. This Roundel is often replaced by the
slightly nicer
looking one from the car division:
36-13-6-758-569 ...also 70
mm.
51-14-2-328-269 is 70
mm (2-3/4") in diameter, used on late models, such as
K1200RS and
R1200C. 3D type. Used on tanks. $.
This will replace the
above -746; look
nicer and hold up longer. Pricey.
52-53-7-686-465 82 mm in diameter; for the
R100GS/R/Mystic; thin metal,
for fuel
tank emblem on many models, including R100GS/R/Mystic,
R1100; R1150,
ETC. Gold letter'd. This used to be
16-11-2-325-183 (I
think). $
36-13-1-181-079 is 70 mm in diameter, convex, self-adhesive;
version requiring
back clip is 36-13-1-122-132, the clip is, I think,
36-13-1-121-???
36-13-1-181-104 is 81
mm in diameter, convex.
36-13-1-181-080 is
64.5 mm in diameter, used on some car hubcaps.
36-13-1-181-106 is 57
mm in diameter, used on car wheels, flat, sticky back.
36-13-1-181-081 is 58
mm in diameter.
36-13-1-110-858 is 60
mm, flat, used on car wheels.
51-14-8-164-924 is
2-1/4" in diameter (about 57 mm), 3D style. This
has 2 locating pegs on
the backside, which can be removed.
51-14-8-132-375 is 3-3/8" in
diameter, similar to above, it is a snap-in type,
used on BMW car hoods.
36-13-1-181-082 is 45 mm (1-3/4 inch) and has a convex self adhesive back;
and will usually fit the back of helmets. Was used on some car wheels.
52-53-2-325-201 is 45 mm, tail badge used on the tail trunks on these models:
Many of the 650 models, K1200, R1100, R1150, R850, ...and the /6 airheads.
36-13-1-182-254 is 64.5 mm in diameter.
51-14-8-203-864 is a trunk lid badge.
32-71-1-238-280. Check this one out if you want a BMW emblem to fit
the steering damper knob hole (if knob removed)...even has an
alignment notch.
51-14-2-303-355. Tiny BMW roundel used on the City Cases of R, F, K
models: 16.2 mm diameter (5/8"). Cloisonné (enamel) on metal. $$$
51-14-2-308-800 Small BMW roundel, might be nice for carb tops,
these are 20 mm diameter (13/16"), 'jewel' style.
52-53-2-325-185. This is the flat style, of 11/16", use at carb tops and??
51-14-2-328-447. 11/16", Jewel-style
46-54-2-300-045. 38 mm (sometimes said to be 1-5/8") 3D plastic
enclosed/flat-backed roundel. The flat backing is black plastic. Used
on large K bike saddlebags, and probably others such as on airheads
and oilheads. Number is BELIEVED correct, but I am not 100%
sure. I took the number off ETK, and have not tried to order or see
these from stock. These measure 38 mm....but if you use some of the
popular BMW parts-on-line search engines, they may be described as 4
cm....which can not be correct for this plastic encased ROUND emblem.
At this point I am not sure of the exact size and description of the part
number. Someone who orders one of these is requested to contact me.
52-14-2-325-181. 2-3/8" flat style.
82-23-9-400-504. 3" weatherproof vinyl sticker with a 3D look.
82-23-9-400-505. 6" weatherproof vinyl sticker with a 3D look.
82-23-9-400-506. 12" weatherproof vinyl sticker with a 3D look.
80-52-9-419-918. This is a ROLL of NON-weatherproof 1-1/2"
stickers, 24 total.
53-53-2-325-181 60 mm (2-3/8") stick-on
16-11-1-230-506 This should be (?) the number for the rubber gasket
that goes under the early fuel tank Roundel.
rev:
0/24/2007: This becomes a new page. Incorporated all the roundel information previously in the Hardware article #68, now called 68A. Initial upload. Added more background and history and the controversy information. Two uploads this date!
03/04/2008: Minor corrections and add rubber gasket
07/06/2008 : clarify some details about Knorr, in BMW history, etc.
07/03/2010: add 52-53-2-325-201
© copyright, 2010, R. Fleischer
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