Starting & Starter
including starter fitment problems!
Bosch and Valeo
Converting from a Bosch to a Valeo (and vice-versa).
Starter relays, starter solenoids, notes, advice, etc.
DENSO starter install photo and notes.
© Copyright, 2012, R. Fleischer
Refer to startingprobs.htm article for more information!! CLICK HERE!
Starters: http://www.discountstarterandalternator.com/ Have one good recommendation, no personal experience.
here is a shortcut: http://www.discountstarterandalternator.com/c-212-motorcycle-starter.aspx
They also have discounted alternators for BMW bikes....in particular, K bikes.
starting BMW Airhead motorcycles can often be traced to a bad
battery or its connections,
but here are other possibilities:
1. Poor contacts on the starter relay
under the fuel tank. This can be sometimes be repaired by opening the
burnishing the contacts. It is possible for you to hear this relay's faint click, and yet the contacts are
not making electrical connection. Very rarely, the relay has corrosion INSIDE the base. MORE commonly,
the starter relay has faint corrosion on its EXternal male prongs, and in its socket (on models having a socket).
Cleaning the external connections will bring a cure to the No-Start NO-click, a permanent fix is to JOIN, very
cleanly and neatly, and insulate afterwards, all the RED wires (usually 3) at the socket.
2. Poor solenoid (located on the starter motor) internal contacts. A replacement is best; but I will have
more to say later, herein, about how you might be able to repair one.
3. The starter itself may have worn brushes, worn bush/bearing, poor drive gear
assembly, or an
armature that needs undercutting at the commutator and truing on a armature lathe. It may also be
heavily grunged-up with dirt/filth.
4. Early Valeo starters had a nasty habit of the
magnets coming loose and jamming
the starter. Some folks have rebuilt them using Saturn car starter parts. Better to change to a
Bosch...or, get an updated Valeo, or EnDuraLast, both of which are the easiest thing to do, and not expensive,
5. You CAN change the original Bosch Starter to a late model improved Valeo (see 4 above). You may
have to do a tiny bit of metal work, described later in this article. Be SURE to get the appropriate 8 or
9 tooth starter!!! Same, regarding metal work and 8 or 9 teeth, if converting to the Denso starter.
6. A more expensive solution is to install the modified Denso starter that is available from numerous
sources. I am not convinced it is worth the large cost. Distributed/Sold by Motorrad Elektrik,
www.motoelekt.com; and possibly available from such as Ted Porter's BEEMERSHOP, etc.
These are modified-nose versions of the DENSO-made starter used on Toyota's, etc.
Possible interference problems with this starter, and need for some mild metal grinding, is shown with a photo,
at the end of this article. NOT a major problem.
7. On many BMW's the starter is the ground for the headlight relay coil, but this is not a problem
starting; as all it does is turn off the headlight during starting, yet leave the instruments & tail light on.
See #1 above too.
Some later model Airheads use a starter relay with a diode inside. Some have substituted a 0-332-014-118 relay (03-32-014-118), and some HAVE used a DF005 'Blazer' relay from AutoZone stores (which has two 87 terminals and no 87a terminal). The Bosch starter relay uses two #87 terminals, and may sub to Bosch 03 32 019 150 for 1977+ bikes. That is a common Bosch accessory use relay. Connector, if you need one, is 0 334 485 007, while the spring loaded terminals are 1 901 355 917. It is certainly possible to substitute almost any common 20 or 30 ampere 12 volt relay for the starter relay on Airheads, but there are some complications, such as with the /5; and with late models with diodes in the relay, so ask ON THE AIRHEADS LIST about it. Complications, if any, are rather easy to deal with, so don't be discouraged with my remarks here. MORE information on starter relays later in this article!!
BUT....see the next paragraph:
NOTE! BMW has an SI on retrofitting the Valeo starter to certain bikes that came with Bosch starters (1985-1988 bikes). BMW thinks that the old starter relay contacts are not up to the larger current draw of the Valeo SOLENOID COIL.
It is my belief that the original relay will almost always be OK, but if you want to install one with larger current capacity, see this document, which I have here in pdf format for you: Retrofitting Valeo
OR, install a common relay as a paragraph above.
Types of Bosch Starters used on BMW Airhead motorcycles:
There are at least THREE types of Bosch starters used on the Airheads as original equipment:
Bosch starters up
through 1974 were 8 tooth 0.001.157.007, rated 0.5 hp and 290 A. The /6
bikes for 1975 and 1976 used
an 8 tooth 0.001.157.015 rated 0.6 hp and 320
A. The 8 tooth starters are used ONLY with the
93 tooth flywheels; and are
for all practical purposes, interchangeable.
and later, the starter
has to be 9 tooth, for use with the 111
flywheels (or more properly called the clutch carrier from 1981).
The starter is 0.001.157.023, rated 0.7 hp and 320
Solenoids, unconfirmed, seem to be the same as EARLY air-cooled VW. When overhauling a Bosch, I usually replace the Bendix, the bearings, the brushes, undercut the armature if needed and often make sure it is round and semi-polished, and a full overhaul includes replacing the solenoid assembly. You can usually get away with NOT doing all these things. Your choice on what you do.
If you divide the flywheel teeth number by the starter motor teeth number, you get the gear ratio for the starter to engine drive. You will see that the change made the gear ratio a bit larger; which likely was to get the additional power.
NOTE: The "Airheads
Beemer Club" had an account with Ace Houston Warehouse, a
The Club account is or was #700. Call Bob Spencer at 1-800-392-3332 or e-mail to firstname.lastname@example.org. Mention account 700. Per information I received from a fellow Airhead, the part was D6RA15, and then Valeo changed it to 432586. This is supposedly a brand NEW starter. There was no core charge, but they will or might pay shipping to get your old one. I do NOT know, no one has confirmed it yes or no... if this is the latest updated Valeo with the safety clips for the magnets!! They may still rebuild Bosch starters (??), last price, quite some time ago, was $200 and a $100 core charge and shipping (core charge refunded). Bob Spencer thought that the Bosch starters MIGHT be put back into production at some point. Quite frankly, I have not had a good reason to deal with these folks.,...that is, I have had NO dealings with them. I consider the prices HIGH....and I think their stock of starters may be getting thin anyway. NOTE! The above information is supplied as a courtesy. MY SUGGESTION is to get your updated starter here: www.euromotoelectrics.com
****I HAVE had dealings with John Rayski at www.euromotoelectrics.com and I CAN recommend him for Bosch starter (and other parts) and for Valeo starters (yes, brand-new updated Valeo's) and their own EnDuraLast. He has the proper Valeo starters with the updated magnets and clips; his prices are good, he offers free shipping (on some orders...and can be quite a savings on a heavy starter)....and he is knowledgeable about the use of these in our Airheads. He is the same person who makes and sells the EnDuraLast alternator conversion for BMW airheads and for MotoGuzzi's. He can supply you with proper spark plugs and a lot of other things. Look at his website: www.euromotoelectrics.com You can also get these starters from such as Ted Porter's Beemershop www.beemershop.com
Be sure to use the Bosch (or other) starter with the proper number of teeth.
The Airhead Bosch starter uses ELECTROmagnets, not permanent magnets, for the field coils.
Bosch does make a
permanent magnet starter, but I have never seen one in the
The Bosch electromagnet starter is very old-fashioned technology, reasonably rugged, reliable, but less powerful than the "permanent magnet high rpm with planetary gear type" like the Valeo. A nice property of the Bosch field coil type is that as it 'sees' a heavier and heavier load (cold engine, thick oil, etc), it draws more and more current, producing more and more power. Still, the ultimate power is less than the Valeo, which spins faster, and has the planetary gear reduction drive inside. I consider it a tossup as to which
is better, considering all factors. The Valeo parts are somewhat less rugged, but that appears not to be any big factor, even over many miles, at least with the updated type with the secured field magnets.
It has been theorized that the Valeo permanent magnet type MIGHT
loose some magnetism over TIME and USAGE.
have held up surprisingly well....and I have had NO reports of this
problem. I would suggest ignoring this 'supposed' problem.
The Bosch starters have a bent metal plate at the forward end, using one bolt to the timing chest wall. This supports the starter to the timing chest wall, needed with the heavy Bosch. When installing a Valeo in place of a Bosch, you do not use the the plate nor bolt, and the Valeo installation is maybe 6 pounds lighter than the Bosch. When installing ANY starter be especially careful that the starter is properly and squarely mounted, you want to avoid breaking or otherwise cracking the nose (the casting that is the rear part over the flywheel) during operation. Be sure the mounting cradle, nose area, etc., is CLEAN of filth and proud metal, etc. See later on that subject in this page. This caution on fitting INCLUDES the original starter!
The Valeo Starter, and some Bosch information:
We all know about the magnet failures on the
early Valeo's. Using epoxy to glue magnets may have its place
in this world, but there
were lots of failures, especially in Airheads where the starter is subject to so
repetitive heat-cool cycles and just plain engine
heat by direct contact. I do NOT like the ideas of epoxies being subjected to
constant wide temperature changes, their
expansion-contraction rate is vastly
different than the surrounding metal. The starter in an Airhead does,
sit right on top of the
engine, inside a cover! The constant heating and cooling cycling can crack or otherwise ruin the bond of the magnet glue.
Valeo addressed this problem (in 2001) by changing the type of glue and reshaping the side of the magnet that fits against the starter shell. ....and late manufacture Valeo starters are adequate and seem reliable. BUT:
There is an aftermarket type of Valeo housing available with a modification to help keep the magnets from moving, spring-type separating pieces (clips). Valeo permanent magnet starters....as well as permanent magnet starters from many other manufacturer's, even Bosch, work fine in cars. The proper aftermarket Valeo's with the updated magnets, bonding, and clips, are available from www.euromotoelectrics.com and probably from such as Ted Porter's BEEMERSHOP.
In the past I have been outspoken in that I personally preferred the Bosch electromagnet type for our Airheads. However, I am open-minded on the latest Valeo starters (especially those from Euromotoelectrics)....and think them now OK....so, if you are making a decision between overhauling your Bosch, or replacing it with a Valeo.....or; replacing a Valeo with a Bosch....I no longer have any especially strong preferences for the Bosch over the Valeo (or the aftermarket Denso, for that matter). For sure, overhauling your existing Bosch starter, assuming the armature is not going to have to be replaced, is going to be much cheaper than replacing it with a brand-new 'anything else'. The stock Bosch starters are perfectly adequate.
parts for rebuilding for both Bosch and Valeo, see
John knows the in's and out's of all of them, and has a stock of all the pertinent Bosch and Valeo parts; and has Valeo starters of the correct type in stock. Remember that there are both 8 and 9 tooth starters.
The Bosch is a common starter for many starter repair shops, easily worked on...but some may not have the parts for the starter used in our Airheads. The same sort of comment could be made about the Valeo and Denso.
You may run into information leading
you to think about using a Saturn housing
when rebuilding an original troublesome
Valeo. Unless you
are trying to save the absolute maximum amount of money, I recommend you
get a new upgraded version
Or get them to fix you up otherwise.
Going from a Valeo to a Bosch and vice-versa:
If you decide to change your failed Valeo to a
Bosch: Brand New Bosch's are very pricey and probably not
available. Try to find a
good used one,
rebuild it if needed. Generally you need only a set of brushes and bushings (bearings)
and a solenoid assembly.
If the Bendix drive is questionable, replace it.
can often be rebuilt too but I do NOT recommend it, although I
the information in this article. You may have to undercut the
armature, farm this out
or do it yourself, it is not difficult.
MUST obtain and
use the forward bent metal plate when using the Bosch.
Keep the Bosch 'Bendix' drive lubricated. I like to use a silicone grease due to its general non-hardening and wide temperature range. But, I have some mixed feelings about the use of silicone's on fast moving parts, and maybe a lightly laced moly grease is better...I am NOT sure about this. Starter rebuilders may have ideas.
This is applicable to 1985-1988 models officially:
BUT....if you install a Valeo in somewhat earlier models, pay attention here too!
There is a POTENTIAL
problem, not commonly known, and there is even a BMW SI (Service
in other words, a Bulletin) on it, and the bulletin is 12-013-9
(2389)....but, see below.
SEE also, the later SI; this is a repeat of earlier information: BMW has another SI on retrofitting the Valeo starter to those bikes that came with Bosch starters (applies primarily to pre-1988 bikes). BMW thinks that the old starter relay contacts are not up to the larger current draw of the Valeo SOLENOID COIL.
It is my belief that the original relay will almost always be OK, but if you want to install one with larger current capacity, see this document, which I have here in pdf format for you: Retrofitting Valeo
That SI does not have ALL the information...but I do, below:
original starter relay is the
61-31-1-244-019 (that's a BMW number, not a
Bosch number!), it contains a diode, and has other properties that
do not match
the Valeo starter, & the relay contacts might stick.......and the starter
continue to run!
BMW says that the proper relay is 61-36-1-391-397, which has a higher current carrying capacity, and a stronger spring to help the contacts open. If you have to replace the -019 relay, BMW will supply the -397 relay. It also has the diode inside. Some have substituted generic 30 ampere relays. NOTE that I have not actually heard of anyone having this sticking problem due to the starter-swap. I have heard of sticking relay problems, but maybe only rarely, since I began working on Airheads! So, it is likely a rare event. On the other hand, it is my belief that if there IS a problem with putting a Valeo into an Airhead that came with a Bosch, that the problem is much more likely to be only with 1985-1988 models; due to a change in the relay internals construction that is NOT mentioned by BMW.
To avoid confusion, if you have a pre-1985 Airhead, the stock relays seem to hold up just fine with the Valeo. I have MEASURED the current draw of the Bosch and the Valeo solenoid coils under actual starter use, and they are NOT excessive, and are just about equal! The inductive kick-back voltage is also comparable. This solenoid coil current is the current that passes through the starter relay contacts. I would not be inclined to replace the early stock relay, although I might open it and burnish the contacts. Again.....it is my belief that the problem, if there really is one (per BMW), that it is confined to SOME of the 1985-1988 models.
Valeo install where original was Bosch:
When retrofitting a Valeo to a BMW Airhead that had come originally with a Bosch starter, there can be an metal interference problem, which can be very slight and hardly noticeable, ...to more moderate. The problem comes about because the starter nose machining is NOT EXACTLY the same between the Bosch and the Valeo starters themselves, and BMW was, perhaps, a bit more careful about machining the engine case when the Valeo was installed as the stock starter. It is my belief that when BMW shipped their own Valeo starters on the later Airheads, that the machining on their Valeo nose might be very slightly different. I have not made enough measurements to prove this.
I strongly suggest that
you replace or even re-install, ANY starter, that you CAREFULLY check its fitment!!
been instances of a starter poorly
fitted, and the nose breaking!
I THINK that this particular metal interference problem will be seen only when installing a Valeo in place of a Bosch, but I am not 100% sure about that. So, my advice here is generic, and assumes you will check fitment of either Bosch or Valeo (and Denso, for that matter!, see much later in this article for that starter). Frankly!!....I think that anytime you remove and replace even the SAME starter that was in the bike....that you should check for the proper fitment!!!
After you remove the old starter, LOOK carefully at the area the aluminum nose of the old starter had recessed into, just forward of where the gear mates to the flywheel (or 'clutch carrier', 1981+) teeth. On some Airheads, BMW may not have cleaned up excessive metal over the last 1/2" or so of the round cavity, at the top inside edge. When you try to install the starter (probably this happens only with the Valeo, but I am NOT sure about that), you may find some combination of the following:
The starter does not fit perfectly,
may not want to go
fully downwards at that nose
area and the Valeo threaded bolt
holes (or even Bosch unthreaded ones??) may
line-up perfectly. Inspect carefully, and use a
half-moon fine file, or a small
electric rotary tool of some sort, to make this inside area
smooth at the top, with
NO metal that is 'proud' (or of lesser diameter, causing a reduced
can feel this with a fingertip, and usually see it with your #1 eyeball.
I have personally
seen this and had to remove about .020" (+-), on both sides, at that
top area. This is easy to do, and
then the Valeo (Bosch?) SHOULD fit/mount correctly.
The Valeo, as opposed to the Bosch, has threaded holes, so you use the bolts you had from the Bosch, sans nuts, from the rear.
Note the excess material at the left. Don't worry if
you remove a bit too much material! DO NOT
remove material at the bottom. Since I can not
visually see YOUR installation, check how the
nose fits, very carefully, at ALL POINTS. Use
a dentists mirror and strong light.
Overhauling the Bosch:
Bosch starters are used in a variety of makes and models of vehicles. Sixties and Seventies VW's, for one example use similar starters to the ones in Airheads. They vary some, but are mostly the same. So, it is not difficult, even at some auto-parts stores, to get parts. I do, however, suggest you get them from www.Euromotoelectrics.com , so you can be sure of getting the correct parts, and at very nice prices.
Not shown anyplace that I know of, is how to overhaul a
malfunctioning solenoid switch.
That is because most people will replace the solenoid. A malfunctioning solenoid that has an open winding is not repairable. However, most of the time the problem is poor contacts inside; although poor contacts at the brushes of the starter can make the solenoid act like it was bad. Below are photos of a Bosch solenoid unit as used on our Airheads. IF THE SOLENOID CONTACTS ARE REALLY WORN OUT, IT IS BEST TO REPLACE THE ASSEMBLY, ALTHOUGH NERDS LIKE ME HAVE MADE NEW CONTACTS AND CONTACT PLATE.
I have removed the terminal end cap.
To do so, you need a large soldering iron with a big tip.
Even a 35 watt
iron with a big tip will work. It is the MASS of the tip
that is important. A
very large soldering
gun (perhaps the
275 watt size) might also work OK.
You undo the 2 screws as shown, and then put a slight to modest amount of pressure on the end cap (as if trying to remove it), whilst you heat the solder joints until they release. Go back and forth to the soldering places; until the cap comes off. Clean up the solder holes. It is VERY important not to mix up which wire goes to what terminal hole!!!...so watch them as you remove the cap. DONT GOOF HERE!!! The easiest way to avoid this is to mark the end cap and body before removal!
Inside you will see the flat switch contacts recessed in the cap you removed....and the mating contacts held to the solenoid with a funny 'nut'. I usually don't bother disassembling further the plunger side.
BEST way to clean the contacts in the cap and at the end of the plunger: Use one of the very small rotary stainless steel (or brass) cone-shaped brushes, that you can put in your drill press or electric drill. They remove very little material, and it takes only a few seconds at modest rpm. An acceptable other method is with the flat end of a piece of doweling or other tool, covered in 220 grit sandpaper.
You MUST keep the
contacts FLAT and square to the assembly, so maximum contact
surface will be obtained.
There are 4 solid conductor wires. The paired wires (push the insulation back a bit if you need to, to see the pair) go to the battery terminal, and the single wire goes to the SPADE terminal. DO NOT mix this up! You've already marked the case and cap so you won't mix them up, right? There is one other wire that is spot-welded to the metal end case. The single wire next to it is the one that goes to the spade terminal. You did note where the wires went when you removed the cap? If you goofed and did not mark the cap and body, the information here will guide you to the proper fitment of the wires before you re-solder.
When re-assembling, you need to be sure the solenoid contacting plate fits into its mating cap depressed area portion, and the wires go to the correct terminals! You can assemble the cambric ring and the wires to the cap, and lift the cap a wee bit, and rotate the tang at the far end of the solenoid, to line up the contacting plate with the cap cavity. Push against the tang end, holding the cap end, on your bench top, to be sure the contacting plate actually moves into the cavity for it. Assemble cap (align wires and pegs) to the plunger side of the solenoid unit carefully, using #1 eyeball, and test that the solenoid plunger mechanically works OK with your fingers, then screw the cap on with the two screws (locate the pegs!)...and THEN solder the terminals. Use ONLY a very hot large tip soldering iron. Use standard rosin core electronics solder. Be careful to assemble correctly!
The solenoid should be tested with it mounted and connected-up to the starter. Do the testing on the repair bench, before you install the starter into the engine block. You will need heavy gauge wires. Connect the + terminal of the battery to the battery large threaded terminal on the solenoid. Connect the - terminal of the battery to a starter nose mounting ear. If you get a small spark from this, you mis-wired the solenoid!
Hold the starter strongly...it will tend to jump around as it starts!.....and, using a jumper wire or screwdriver, etc, momentarily connect the SPADE terminal to the + battery connection at the solenoid. The solenoid should clicking strongly and loudly and the starter should run.
Overhauling the Valeo
going to write up how to do this, but a fairly decent article
with photos is on Anton Largiader's website, so here is the
Note: Valeo starters
can be purchased from
www.Euromotoelectrics.com; and they have parts for Valeo, and Bosch, and
many other things. I highly recommend them (over Ace
Houston Warehouse, which is mentioned in Anton's article as well
as the one you are reading, well above this area). Euromotoelectrics Valeo's are the latest type, with the modified
magnets AND magnet clips. NOTE the information and photo,
well above, on fitting Valeo's to an Airhead that previously came
with a Bosch.
It was reported to me that the Denso aftermarket starter,
such as sold by Motorrad Elektrik, etc, does not, or may not, fit perfectly.
I obtained a photo. The installer noticed TWO problems with
1. Light interference with the solenoid to the starter cavity cover (rib on it).
2. Interference at the mounting ear on the back cover. In the photo, below, you can see that the ear has been ground down so as to give about 1-2 mm of clearance between the crankcase and the starter ear.
02/06/2004: add link to /5 article; minor other clarifications
05/30/2004: add NOTE on the starter relay changes
10/27/2005: updated in numerous places
04/22-2006: add red note on Valeo installation needing special relay
11/28/2006: correct URL spelling for euromotoelectrics
11/29/2006: Change to 16-A, and do minor editing (16-B is being written)
04/28/2007: Fix actual hyperlink for euromotoelectrics, display had been OK, link NOT.
09/28-10/1/2009: Update hyperlinks, clarify some details that were unclear; re-arrange article a bit for
additional clarity, add all the information on the Bosch Starter solenoid overhaul.
10/17/2009: photo of the metal interference problem. Clarifications & editing throughout article.
11/23/2009: reference to Anton's site for the Valeo overhaul, euromotoelectrics in that same area, etc.
04/25/2010: Add photo and information on the Denso problem
05/24/2010: Fix typo regarding forward plate that IS used with Bosch, NOT Valeo. Clarify minor details.
05/12/2011: Fix typo where word alternator should be starter. Add dividing line at one place to clarify a
new discussion section that was confusing. Fix a couple of mis-spellings. Remove hyperlink
to 'thisoldtractor site (that has removed the starter motor overhaul information).
08/04/2011: Fix note, DF005 relay now confirmed as substitute.
11/14/2012: Clean up article, separate sections needing such, add some minor details, fix whole article
so will display a bit better on Chrome and Firefox, and on somewhat smaller screens.
08/11/2014: MINOR changes
© copyright, 2012, R. Fleischer
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